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Post by Peishin Louh on Oct 19, 2008 16:38:12 GMT
Watched Hero earlier today and had some thoughts.
I tried to recall what Bleach reveals about shikai and bankai (remember folks, I've only read about 5 volumes of the manga, so I'm mostly relying on the anime), and was touched by the sentiments at the end of Hero, so I wrote the following.
Let me know what you think...
SHIKAI To achieve shikai a shinigami must enter their inner world and learn the name of their zanpakuto.
Sympathy is the key to attaining shikai.
A shinigami must come to terms with the fact that they need to rely on the part of themselves that wishes to cut and kill the enemy. Accepting this, a shinigami can achieve shikai and work in harmony with their zanpakuto to increase their power and skill.
Example: Ichigo and Zangetsu work together to beat Kenpachi.
I imagine spontaneous, artistic and philosophical people would find shikai easier to attain, as they already look into the darker parts of their souls.
BANKAI
To achieve bankai a shinigami must externalise the spirit of their zanpakuto and physically defeat it.
Subjugation is the key to bankai.
A shinigami must bring out the spirit of their sword and face it down, physically defeating the part of themselves that wants to fight and kill without restraint. By forcing submission a shinigami confronts and accepts the full responsibility for that part of their soul. To stand and fight and kill is the choice of the wielder, not of the sword.
Example: Ichigo defeats Zangetsu in combat. He no longer relies on Zangetsu for power and no longer needs to work in harmony with him, because he now knows that the power is part of him and always has been. The inner unrest is ended. In his own words, "the rain has finally stopped."
These were my thoughts. I'd be interested to know what others thought too.
Finally, I'd just like to include the passage from Hero that set me off thinking. (Imagine in a world-weary wonderstruck Chinese voice for maximum effect XP).
In the first stage, man and sword become interchangeable.
Here, even a blade of grass can be used as a lethal weapon.
In the next stage, the sword resides not in the hand but in the heart.
Even without a weapon the warrior can slay his enemy at a hundred paces.
But the ultimate ideal is when the sword disappears altogether, and the warrior embraces all that is around him. The desire to kill is gone. Only peace remains.
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Lunar
11th Squad Captain
THE TOAST KING!
Lord of Toast
Posts: 401
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Post by Lunar on Oct 19, 2008 23:06:50 GMT
There are two errors that are easy to make and you made both of them. You assumed that all zanpakuto behave the same towards their wielder, and you assumed that the bankai training Ichigo went through was the same for everyone else. To achieve shikai, your zanpakuto has to believe you are worthy to wield it. Zangetsu would only allow Ichigo to wield him once he accepted that to use his full power they must work together, however other zanpakuto may require their wielder to be intelligent or even extremely reckless. It's all based on the spirit, which is based on the person. You were a little more accurate about achieving bankai. To do so, you do have to manifest your zanpakuto's spirit physically, but they may train you in different ways. Ichigo had to fight Zangetsu in order to learn to use his skills to their limits, like when he learned how to willingly fire Getsuga Tensho, but another spirit may train their wielder in a different way.
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Post by Peishin Louh on Oct 19, 2008 23:18:59 GMT
actually lunar, my thoughts were more extensive than what i'd posted, and included the possibility of differences between individuals, but i thought i was waffling on too much as it stood. plus i admit i didn't have much of a clue how to accommodate for such differences in training.
one thing i think must be the same for all zanpakuto however; they are swords. they exist for one purpose, to hit and cut something. therefore, to me, all zanpakuto must represent at least in part the desire of the individual to cause harm to another being or object.
your thoughts are very welcome, though i do hope you can expand on them.
any ideas about an intellectual challenge for shikai / bankai?
and similar; any for recklessness?
i'll work on my theories and develop them then post them here for your consideration. i'll try and work out individual differences and some examples etc.
(if you're wondering: because i'm unemployed and have nothing better to do than draw fanart and bugger about XP)
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Lunar
11th Squad Captain
THE TOAST KING!
Lord of Toast
Posts: 401
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Post by Lunar on Oct 20, 2008 4:00:01 GMT
Your point about zanpakuto being swords which makes them meant to harm is accurate in most cases and I used to agree with you on the matter. However, while thinking about that two zanpakuto stood out, Hisagomaru (Hanataro's) and Minazuki (Captain Unohana's). Hisagomaru does not cut at all, it heals the wounds of whoever it strikes, similar to how Hanataro is very nonviolent. Though one could argue that it still harms people because it can fire the healed damage back at an opponent, the fact that it did heal someone makes it different. Minazuki however, is not shown to have any damaging abilities. It functions entirely as a healing and transportation zanpakuto, an extremely unique trait. Of course we know that the 20 seated members of squad four all have a shikai, and sense they are the medical squad it is quite possible there are other healing zanpakuto. I'm very happy you asked me for examples because I had one that I didn't use so my post wouldn't be to long. I don't have one for recklessness (I just pulled a personality trait out of a hat) but one of my characters had to prove his intelligence to his zanpakuto. Osamu defeated his zanpakuto, Sukuro, in a game of chess while discussing scholarly matters. (Read his profile if you want the full story) Something I thought of just after typing this is Aizen's zanpakuto, Kyōka Suigetsu. It's ability, though very useful in combat, is not offensive and is based on deception, the most obvious trait of Aizen's personality. Try to imagine what kind of test he went through to control it, then think of his bankai training. (Also think of how amazing his bankai probably is.)
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Post by Peishin Louh on Oct 20, 2008 15:27:59 GMT
Hanataro and Unohana are good points, I didn't consider them.
Does Hanataro's zanpakuto heal before release as well, or is it just after he uses shikai? In his case (as his zanpakuto becomes a scalpel when released) I imagine that part of his soul is the part that wants to help people, and is willing to slice them open to perform surgery etc.
Aizen would be an interesting case.
I put forward an example from a Pratchett book (Witches Abroad), where Mistress Weatherwax is in a room full of reflections and Death tells her she must find the real one to survive. She pats her chest and announces that she's found the real one, and Death lets her live.
I imagine Aizen's bankai challenge would be of a similar nature. Actually, given his ruthless nature, I reckon his bankai would be a much harsher challenge than most - really a life or death test.
Funny how we both thought of chess when considering a test of intelligence, isn't it? Do you play? I'm not very good but I do love a game with a cup of tea and some biscuits. I'll go read Osamu's profile now.
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Post by The Tortured Soul on Oct 21, 2008 0:30:06 GMT
Ok I'm tired (hence I've not been replying to all the new posts tonight) I really wanna go in deep with this, but for now I'll just keep it to one minor point You are both slightly incorrect to attain Shikai. In fact of all the things you hafta learn to do with your Zanpakuto it is the easiest! All you have to do is learn it's name. The only thing that can hinder you in this is your spiritual pressure (you have to have reached a certain level before the name will "reach your ears"). However learning to fight in harmony with your sword is what helps you improve and learn new abilities and such. I'd also say it'd help you on the road to Bankai too. As to attain Bankai you must achieve Materialization. To achieve Bankai (whether it's through a fight, chess match... poem writing contest, etc etc) you must subjugate the materialized spirit. I think that'll do for now ^.^
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Post by Peishin Louh on Oct 21, 2008 16:41:56 GMT
About bankai:
It seems to me that materialisation is what takes the bulk of the time to achieve (I'd go so far to say as much as 90-95% of the total time). Take Ichigo as the only real example of bankai training I've seen.
Yoruichi takes care of the materialisation with that doll thing (I forget the name of it). We all know how powerful she turns out to be - fighting and beating the tenth Espada with relative ease - and yet after the first day of Ichigo's training she's exhausted.
This suggests that developing the power, concentration and skill to maintain materialisation while you complete the challenge is the most time consuming part of bankai training.
The challenge (in Ichigo's case, finding the real Zangestsu and cutting down his spirit-body) should take a much shorter amount of time. Although admittedly it could still take a while, the only time limit then would be the limit of your own endurance.
As for the challenges themselves, I had a think about some of the captains and Kurotsuchi leapt to mind.
Kurotsuchi's challenge probably would have been a riddle, or possibly along the lines of a postmortem, or possibly even that old puzzle: two identical cups, one full of poison, one full of wine, how do you tell which is which? By taking one up and tasting it.
Any ideas for the other captains?
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