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Post by The Tortured Soul on Jun 28, 2008 8:09:33 GMT
This occured to me out of another thread so i release this could cause quite a deep disscussion so moved it here. I've been unsure of this for a while now. Is Ichigo still alive? During the process to regain his Shinigami powers (well actually to awaken his own but n/m) His Chain of Fate was severed. This ment, as Urahara explained at the time (as well as it being mentioned before) that he couldn't return to his body and was completely dead. Not only this but his chain of fate eroded away completely! This caused him to begin his Hollow transformation (personally I think Urahara did this deliberatly so that he'd become a Vizard but thats for another thread maybe ). He regained his powers but I wouldn't have thought that'd mean he'd be able to re-enter his body, as he still has no chain of fate. I suppose he could be using his body like a Gigai and while he's in it (or Kon for that matter) it's -not- dead and so doesn't decompose. On the other hand he COULD be completely dead. What with his Dad i'd assume Urahara is capable of making gigai that function perfectly well as living humans. So maybe he is dead and just using a gigai? I don't have the answers for this one, even if I did I... this is a thread... so DISCUSS!!!
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Lunar
11th Squad Captain
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Lord of Toast
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Post by Lunar on Jun 28, 2008 8:43:19 GMT
This is a very interesting topic. Urahara is very tricky. I think he killed Ichigo to help him gain his powers back then, using another one of his tricks that is probably less than legal, brought him back to life. That would make Ichigo not just the only living shinigami, but also the only Vizard. Also, do the other Vizard use Gigais? Shinji was able to be seen by people without powers, but the next time they showed him he had his zanpakuto so there's no way of knowing if he had to eject from a Gigai.
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Post by The Tortured Soul on Jun 28, 2008 10:36:42 GMT
Yes the Vizard are confusing in that way. I suppose one of their powers could be that they can manifest their Soul Slayers materially thought I don't see why. I guess we should just assume that their Gigai's look exactly like their spirit forms as they have left the Shinigami behind they stopped wearing the Shinigami uniform and just wear the clothes they like. As far as i was aware nobody is capable of manifesting a Zanpakuto as aything other than a spirit-based weapon. Only some kinda of race that were both of the physical and spirital world could do such a thing in my conception. The bounto don't manifest Zanpakuto so they don't count. I supose their Dolls could attack spiritual entities and were physical entities themselves. So that would leave the only things that could have this capability being Fan Creations. For example 506's race he has mentioned can manifest Zanpakuto with large quntities of training, maybe they could manifested as both a spirital and physical manifestation. Also a creation of my own are both Physical and Spiritual. (they themselves cannot, but through a complicated sequence of events someone is created with the power to do so... So it really would annoy me if the Vizard can, because i thought this was an orginal ability! )
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Post by 506 on Jun 28, 2008 22:18:59 GMT
In terms of Ichigo being living, it would be safe to assume that the existence of a chain of fate determines if one is alive or not, not the state of their body. That would make Ichigo dead, in the technical sense. But this also raises another question, was Ichigos body technicly dead whenever he left it when he still had a chain of fate?
And on the topic of manifesting Zanpakuto as anything other then a weapon. First of all, it is stated by Ichigo's father, and I cant recall his exact words, but I do believe he said that at least captain level shinigami compress their spirit energy into smaller swords, or they would be swinging around swords the size of sky scrapers. This shows that there is an element of control in the sealed form of ones Zanpakuto, so possibly one can also turn their Zanpakuto into other objects? And I'm not sure if I'm right...but Yamato makes his Zanpakuto look like a cane, showing another degree of control, no?
Oh and, Tort. They can also manifest Zanpakuto through a secret method, meaning that as long as they can take pulling a part of their soul out, any Zyzlayfran can do it.
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Post by The Tortured Soul on Jun 29, 2008 7:42:50 GMT
I wasn't talking about reshaping a Zanpakuto. I was refering about manifesting it physically rather than spiritually. Errm, how to explain this concept...
Say if they were in their gigai and created a physical Soul Slayer, non-spiritually aware people could see it! They would probably wonder why he was carrying a katana and be even more confused if they saw it transform as a release. I've never seen anyone use their Soul Slayer while inside their gigai, i guess thats coz a Soul Slayer is a spirital object and the Gigai is a physical object.
As for Ichigo, because nothing has been fully explained I don't think it's safe to assume any possibility. Hence creating this thread for a debate on the subject!
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Post by 506 on Jun 29, 2008 17:06:14 GMT
Ahhh, I understand now.
One has to keep in mind that soul society trys to be stealthy like that, there would be no real point for a shinigami to manifest their Zanpakuto physicly, as that would be drawing attention.
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Post by The Tortured Soul on Jun 30, 2008 4:36:35 GMT
it would have more effects than that, but never mind.
I guess this topic didn't cause as much disccussion as i thought it would. I guess we won't know for sure untill it's brought up in the Anime or Manga.
Another thing I used to wonder about but is less important. In the first ep when he becomes a Death God... where the hell does his body go? He also would have to get back into it, but he hs no recollection of events inbetween killing FishboneD (the hollow) and waking up the next day!
Maybe Rukia used the memory replacer on him as well as his family, but he remembered most of the events because of his spiritual presure (Like Inoue later on).
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Post by metalgearray on Jul 6, 2008 18:30:26 GMT
i dont think rukia used it on him, he is followed by rukia lots. if he were to have it used on him then shed have a harder job convincing him to help her do her job
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Post by Master of Darkness on Jul 8, 2008 2:22:44 GMT
That doesn't quite answer the question of whether Ichigo's dead or alive... I say alive. No reason, other than I can
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Choco
Unseated Member
Posts: 111
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Post by Choco on Sept 16, 2008 16:16:04 GMT
...make Ichigo not just the only living shinigami, but also the only Vizard. Forgive the bump, but UNTRUE. I do believe that at one point, that foul-mouthed girl mentioned that Shinji was to go to Ichigo's school and recruit him for the very reason that Shinji was the only living one among their number up to then... something like that.
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Post by The Tortured Soul on Sept 16, 2008 19:11:47 GMT
I'm sorry but no, Shinji is most definatly dead. He was the 5th Squad Captain.
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ramennoodles452
5th Squad Lieutenant
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Posts: 103
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Post by ramennoodles452 on Sept 16, 2008 21:06:22 GMT
I've never seen anyone use their Soul Slayer while inside their gigai, i guess thats coz a Soul Slayer is a spirital object and the Gigai is a physical object. That's cuz Gigai's severely limit what Shinigami's can do. They complain about it various times. I think in order to be as realistic to being a human as possible, they can't manifest zanpaktous while in a gigai? So that's probably why we don't see gigai's with zanpaktous. But, when Toshiro, Matsumoto, Ikkaku, and the narcissist came to Ichigo's school, wasn't Ikkaku complaining about not being able to have a katana? and that's why he was carrying around a bokken. I think if they didn't have that rule at Ichigo's school, Ikkaku might have had his zanpaktou with him while in a gigai. BTW when Uahara took Ichigo out of his body when Ichigo went to him to become a shinigami again, did uahara kill Ichigo to separate his soul from his body? or did Uahara use that cane thing? I forget.
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Choco
Unseated Member
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Post by Choco on Sept 16, 2008 21:37:07 GMT
This I know: Urahara used the cane on Ichigo.
And Ayasegawa (the narcissist; and I think) was the one that mentioned it was illegal to actually carry around a sword... but you make a good point about that, methinks.
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Post by The Tortured Soul on Sept 17, 2008 3:28:57 GMT
Yes Shinigami are limited with what they can do while in a Gigai. Because with the exception of Demon Arts they are limited to a physical Body (or at least mostly physical, for it to be 100% physical is illegal as it means Soul Society cannot track it). Demon arts are not part of the body and are created outside of it so i guess thats why they can still use them, it just looks to other people like they are hold it out their hands and shouting I will admit most of this is my own thoughts. But in the manga they do explain that part of the reason Rukia's Gigai is illegal is because it contains no spirit particals and is entirely physical, So while this may not be the reason why they don't use Zanpakuto in their Gigai you can't deny that their Gigai is a physical entity (which also means humans with no spiritual pressure can see them, how handy!)
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